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> Unwanted blank space problem
soom
post May 23 2020, 12:58 AM
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Hello to everyone, I'm new and it's my first post. I made a website for a friend, with my little knowledge of webdesign and related languages. I just finished the job and want to go online but have problem in almost all pages with unwanted blank space, often presents inside layout text box, at the end of the text and other times the bank space is over the layout text box, causing problem of page stretching. I will attach photo to explain better the problem. In case i can also attach the code if needed. Thanks to all for help
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pandy
post May 23 2020, 06:23 AM
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QUOTE(soom @ May 23 2020, 07:58 AM) *

In case i can also attach the code if needed.


Please do. Or even better, link to the page if it is online.
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soom
post May 23 2020, 10:43 AM
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The site will be online soon, just time to buy hosting tomorrow and upload, for the moment i will post the code here of the homepage. Thanks to all for help.


CODE

<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN">

<html>

    <head>
        <meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html;charset=iso-8859-1">
        <title>Welcome to St. Andrews-group</title>
    </head>
    

    <body bgcolor="#ffffff" leftmargin="0" marginheight="0" marginwidth="0" topmargin="0">
        <table width="1280" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" cool gridx="16" gridy="16" height="2374" showgridx showgridy usegridx usegridy>
            <tr height="64">
                <td width="1280" height="64" colspan="9" valign="top" align="left" xpos="0">
                    <table width="1280" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" bgcolor="#000033" cool gridx="16" gridy="16" height="64" showgridx showgridy usegridx usegridy>
                        <tr height="22">
                            <td width="1280" height="22" colspan="2"><spacer type="block" width="1280" height="22"></td>
                            <td width="1" height="22"><spacer type="block" width="1" height="22"></td>
                        </tr>
                        <tr height="41">
                            <td width="335" height="41" valign="top" align="left" xpos="0">
                                <style type="text/css">
a {text-decoration: none;
  color: #FFFFFF;
}
    </style>
                            </td>
                            <td content csheight="18" width="944" height="41" valign="top" xpos="335"><font size="2" color="white"><font face="Times New Roman,Georgia,Times">HOME | <a href="about.html">ABOUT US</a> | <a href="howweinvest.html">HOW WE INVEST</a> | <a href="services.html">OUR SERVICES</a> | <a href="plannigport.html">PLANNING YOUR PORTFOLIO</a> | <a href="contact.html">CONTACT US</a></font></font></td>
                            <td width="1" height="41"><spacer type="block" width="1" height="41"></td>
                        </tr>
                        <tr height="1" cntrlrow>
                            <td width="335" height="1"><spacer type="block" width="335" height="1"></td>
                            <td width="944" height="1"><spacer type="block" width="944" height="1"></td>
                            <td width="1" height="1"><spacer type="block" width="1" height="1"></td>
                        </tr>
                    </table>
                </td>
            </tr>
            <tr height="624">
                <td width="1280" height="624" colspan="9" valign="top" align="left" xpos="0"><img src="photo-home.png" alt="" height="600" width="1280" border="0"></td>
            </tr>
            <tr height="12">
                <td width="16" height="1595" rowspan="9"></td>
                <td width="16" height="776" rowspan="4"></td>
                <td content csheight="768" csgroup="06A31700" width="560" height="776" rowspan="4" valign="top" xpos="32">
                    <h5><font size="5" color="gray" face="Times New Roman,Georgia,Times">Welcome to St. Andrews-group</font><font face="Times New Roman,Georgia,Times"><br>
                        </font></h5>
                    <p><font color="#a9a9a9" face="Times New Roman,Georgia,Times">St. Andrews-group is a fully independent global investment management firm. Our choice of investment solutions spans both market capitalization and style spectra and encompasses everything from regional and global strategies to multi-asset, tactical investing.<br>
                        </font></p>
                    <p><font color="#a9a9a9" face="Times New Roman,Georgia,Times">Our dedicated investment, analytical and business professional team, are perpetually committed to delivering an invaluable market information network service for all St. Andrews-group clients. Our professional analysts provide an essential support infrastructure to our investment managers, bestowing the insight into economic and corporate fundamentals that ensure our clients are always well-informed.<br>
                        </font></p>
                    <h5><font size="5" color="gray" face="Times New Roman,Georgia,Times">How We Invest</font><font face="Times New Roman,Georgia,Times"><br>
                        </font></h5>
                    <p><font color="#a9a9a9" face="Times New Roman,Georgia,Times">At St. Andrews-group, we regard information and its flow as the most important aspect of our business. We know that by exploiting the inefficiencies in the way information pervades the markets, we can deliver a solid advantage and consistently superior investment returns for the benefit of our clients.</font></p>
                </td>
                <td width="32" height="816" rowspan="5"></td>
                <td width="48" height="12" colspan="2"></td>
                <td width="592" height="776" rowspan="4" valign="top" align="left" xpos="672">
                    <table width="590" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" cool gridx="16" gridy="16" height="577" showgridx showgridy usegridx usegridy>
                        <tr height="10">
                            <td width="13" height="576" rowspan="2"></td>
                            <td width="576" height="10"></td>
                            <td width="1" height="10"><spacer type="block" width="1" height="10"></td>
                        </tr>
                        <tr height="566">
                            <td content csheight="566" width="576" height="566" valign="top" xpos="13">
                                <h5><font size="5" color="gray" face="Times New Roman,Georgia,Times">Our People</font><font face="Times New Roman,Georgia,Times"><br>
                                    </font></h5>
                                <p><font color="#a9a9a9" face="Times New Roman,Georgia,Times">We are, first and foremost, a people business. Our strengths stem from our ability to attract, retain and motivate the most talented professionals and support personnel.</font><font face="Times New Roman,Georgia,Times"><br>
                                    </font></p>
                                <p><a href="ourpeople.html"><img src="readmoretext.gif" alt="" height="11" width="71" border="0"></a></p>
                                <h5><font size="5" color="gray" face="Times New Roman,Georgia,Times">Our Mission Statement</font><font face="Times New Roman,Georgia,Times"><br>
                                    </font></h5>
                                <p><font color="#a9a9a9" face="Times New Roman,Georgia,Times">St. Andrews-group's purview focuses on enabling our clients to accumulate new wealth and to protect and/or generate meaningful income from existing capital.</font><font face="Times New Roman,Georgia,Times"><br>
                                    </font></p>
                                <p><a href="ourmission.html"><img src="readmoretext.gif" alt="" height="11" width="71" border="0"></a></p>
                                <h5><font size="5" color="gray" face="Times New Roman,Georgia,Times">Our Outlook</font><font face="Times New Roman,Georgia,Times"><br>
                                    </font></h5>
                                <p><font color="#a9a9a9" face="Times New Roman,Georgia,Times">We are cautiously optimistic on the global economy but remain positioned to change tactics in the event of an unexpected downturn in growth expectations.</font><font face="Times New Roman,Georgia,Times"><br>
                                    </font></p>
                                <p><a href="ouroutlook.html"><img src="readmoretext.gif" alt="" height="11" width="71" border="0"></a></p>
                            </td>
                            <td width="1" height="566"><spacer type="block" width="1" height="566"></td>
                        </tr>
                        <tr height="1" cntrlrow>
                            <td width="13" height="1"><spacer type="block" width="13" height="1"></td>
                            <td width="576" height="1"><spacer type="block" width="576" height="1"></td>
                            <td width="1" height="1"></td>
                        </tr>
                    </table>
                </td>
                <td width="15" height="1595" rowspan="9"></td>
                <td width="1" height="12"><spacer type="block" width="1" height="12"></td>
            </tr>
            <tr height="143">
                <td width="48" height="143" colspan="2" valign="top" align="left" xpos="624"><img src="megafono.gif" alt="" height="40" width="40" border="0"></td>
                <td width="1" height="143"><spacer type="block" width="1" height="143"></td>
            </tr>
            <tr height="140">
                <td width="48" height="140" colspan="2" valign="top" align="left" xpos="624"><img src="ingranaggi.gif" alt="" height="40" width="40" border="0"></td>
                <td width="1" height="140"><spacer type="block" width="1" height="140"></td>
            </tr>
            <tr height="481">
                <td width="48" height="481" colspan="2" valign="top" align="left" xpos="624"><img src="double-arrow.jpg" alt="" height="40" width="40" border="0"></td>
                <td width="1" height="481"><spacer type="block" width="1" height="481"></td>
            </tr>
            <tr height="40">
                <td width="576" height="40" colspan="2" valign="top" align="left" xpos="16"><a href="howweinvest.html"><img src="readmore.jpg" alt="" height="32" width="128" border="0"></a></td>
                <td width="16" height="819" rowspan="5"></td>
                <td width="624" height="40" colspan="2"></td>
                <td width="1" height="40"><spacer type="block" width="1" height="40"></td>
            </tr>
            <tr height="224">
                <td bgcolor="#f1f1f1" content csheight="757" csgroup="06A31700" width="608" height="757" colspan="3" rowspan="3" valign="top" xpos="16">
                    <h5><font size="5" color="gray" face="Times New Roman,Georgia,Times">Our Investment Services</font><font face="Times New Roman,Georgia,Times"><br>
                        </font></h5>
                    <p><font color="#a9a9a9" face="Times New Roman,Georgia,Times">St. Andrews-group has been building, preserving and managing wealth for generations of private investors. We have considerable assets under management across a variety of market capitalizations, global regions and sectors.<br>
                        </font></p>
                    <p><font color="#a9a9a9" face="Times New Roman,Georgia,Times">At St. Andrews-group, we give short shrift to the idea of an "off-the-peg" solution to our clients' unique financial requirements. Not for us the rigid risk appetite categories –"low", "medium" or "high" – in our opinion, individual circumstances demand individual solutions so every portfolio is effectively "made to measure".<br>
                        </font></p>
                    <p><font color="#a9a9a9" face="Times New Roman,Georgia,Times">St. Andrews-group sees our commitment to clients as being two-fold: The consistently impressive returns generated by our adept investment management teams combined with distinction in client service.<br>
                        </font></p>
                    <p><font color="#a9a9a9" face="Times New Roman,Georgia,Times">To meet this commitment, a dedicated team of client service professionals apply the same drive and flair as our investment professionals do and, in doing so, they ensure that market-beating returns are matched by market-beating service levels. The result is a level of service that was once only available to large institutional investors like pension funds and treasurers.</font></p>

                </td>
                <td content csheight="224" width="624" height="224" colspan="2" valign="top" xpos="640">
                    <p><font size="5" color="gray" face="Times New Roman,Georgia,Times">Discretionary Investment Management<br>
                        </font></p>
                    <p><font color="#a9a9a9" face="Times New Roman,Georgia,Times">By entrusting us with limited authority to make discretionary investment decisions on your behalf, you are free to go about your normal business safe in the knowledge that we are working hard to see to it that your investment return objectives are met.<br>
                        </font></p>
                    <p><a href="discretman.html"><img src="readmoretext.gif" alt="" height="11" width="71" border="0"></a></p>
                </td>
                <td width="1" height="224"><spacer type="block" width="1" height="224"></td>
            </tr>
            <tr height="172">
                <td content csheight="172" width="624" height="172" colspan="2" valign="top" xpos="640">
                    <p><font size="5" color="gray" face="Times New Roman,Georgia,Times">Financial Planning Services</font><br>
                    </p>
                    <p><font color="#a9a9a9">No two investors are identical. Your life develops like no one else's and, as such, it requires a financial plan of action that is personalized to reflect your situation and your life's unique characteristics.</font><br>
                    </p>
                    <p><a href="fin-plan.html"><img src="readmoretext.gif" alt="" height="11" width="71" border="0"></a></p>
                </td>
                <td width="1" height="172"><spacer type="block" width="1" height="172"></td>
            </tr>
            <tr height="361">
                <td content csheight="193" width="624" height="361" colspan="2" valign="top" xpos="640">
                    <p><font size="5" color="gray" face="Times New Roman,Georgia,Times">The LongShort Report</font><br>
                    </p>
                    <p><font color="#a9a9a9" face="Times New Roman,Georgia,Times">The LongShort Report is a popular subscription-based investment report for more experienced investors who have a desire to profit from the short-term volatility typically associated with financial markets.</font><font face="Times New Roman,Georgia,Times"><br>
                        </font></p>
                    <p><a href="long-short.html"><img src="readmoretext.gif" alt="" height="11" width="71" border="0"></a></p>
                </td>
                <td width="1" height="361"><spacer type="block" width="1" height="361"></td>
            </tr>
            <tr height="22">
                <td width="608" height="22" colspan="3"></td>
                <td width="624" height="22" colspan="2"></td>
                <td width="1" height="22"><spacer type="block" width="1" height="22"></td>
            </tr>
            <tr height="90">
                <td width="1280" height="90" colspan="9" valign="top" align="left" xpos="0">
                    <table width="1280" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" bgcolor="#000033" cool gridx="16" gridy="16" height="90" showgridx showgridy usegridx usegridy>
                        <tr height="18">
                            <td width="1279" height="18" colspan="5"><spacer type="block" width="1279" height="18"></td>
                            <td width="1" height="18"><spacer type="block" width="1" height="18"></td>
                        </tr>
                        <tr height="14">
                            <td width="976" height="14" colspan="3"><spacer type="block" width="976" height="14"></td>
                            <td content csheight="18" width="288" height="18" rowspan="2" valign="top" xpos="976"><font size="2" color="white" face="Times New Roman,Georgia,Times">© 2020 St. Andrews-group</font></td>
                            <td width="15" height="18" rowspan="2"><spacer type="block" width="15" height="18"></td>
                            <td width="1" height="14"><spacer type="block" width="1" height="14"></td>
                        </tr>
                        <tr height="4">
                            <td width="31" height="57" rowspan="2"><spacer type="block" width="31" height="57"></td>
                            <td content csheight="20" width="944" height="57" rowspan="2" valign="top" xpos="31"><font size="2"><font color="white" face="Times New Roman,Georgia,Times">HOME | <a href="about.html">ABOUT US</a> | <a href="howweinvest.html">HOW WE INVEST</a> | <a href="services.html">OUR SERVICES</a> | <a href="plannigport.html">PLANNING YOUR PORTFOLIO</a> | <a href="contact.html">CONTACT US</a></font></font></td>
                            <td width="1" height="4"><spacer type="block" width="1" height="4"></td>
                            <td width="1" height="4"><spacer type="block" width="1" height="4"></td>
                        </tr>
                        <tr height="53">
                            <td content csheight="35" width="304" height="53" colspan="3" valign="top" xpos="975"><font size="2" color="white" face="Times New Roman,Georgia,Times"><a href="privacy.html">Privacy Statement</a> | <a href="disclaimer.html">Legal Disclaimer</a> | <a href="contact.html">Contact Us</a> </font></td>
                            <td width="1" height="53"><spacer type="block" width="1" height="53"></td>
                        </tr>
                        <tr height="1" cntrlrow>
                            <td width="31" height="1"><spacer type="block" width="31" height="1"></td>
                            <td width="944" height="1"><spacer type="block" width="944" height="1"></td>
                            <td width="1" height="1"><spacer type="block" width="1" height="1"></td>
                            <td width="288" height="1"><spacer type="block" width="288" height="1"></td>
                            <td width="15" height="1"><spacer type="block" width="15" height="1"></td>
                            <td width="1" height="1"><spacer type="block" width="1" height="1"></td>
                        </tr>
                    </table>
                </td>
            </tr>
            <tr height="1" cntrlrow>
                <td width="16" height="1"><spacer type="block" width="16" height="1"></td>
                <td width="16" height="1"><spacer type="block" width="16" height="1"></td>
                <td width="560" height="1"><spacer type="block" width="560" height="1"></td>
                <td width="32" height="1"><spacer type="block" width="32" height="1"></td>
                <td width="16" height="1"><spacer type="block" width="16" height="1"></td>
                <td width="32" height="1"><spacer type="block" width="32" height="1"></td>
                <td width="592" height="1"><spacer type="block" width="592" height="1"></td>
                <td width="15" height="1"><spacer type="block" width="15" height="1"></td>
                <td width="1" height="1"></td>
            </tr>
        </table>
    </body>

</html>

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pandy
post May 23 2020, 10:51 AM
Post #4


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Thanks. I've looked at the image but I'm not totally sure what space you refer to. Is it the space at left and bottom of the left textbox with gray-ish background? Or that the dark blue bar at the bottom doesn't go all the way to the right? Or something else?
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Christian J
post May 23 2020, 12:00 PM
Post #5


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The page uses complicated nested tables for the layout, and I suspect the spanned columns and rows don't add up. Some table cells also have a fixed height, thus expanding the entire table. By using colored borders on tables and cells you may easier see what goes where.

Sidenotes:

There's a STYLE element in a table where it's not allowed (STYLE can only be in the page's HEAD section). There are also some ancient HTML elements (like SPACER) that no browsers support anymore, as far as I know.
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pandy
post May 23 2020, 01:39 PM
Post #6


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Wasn't SPACER a Netscape invention that never made it to a spec? Interesting, I think this is the first time I've seen it actually used.

Still haven't figured out exactly what spaces you have a problem with, but I agree with Christian. The tables are probably to blame.
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soom
post May 24 2020, 12:27 AM
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Hi, sorry for unclear explanation. I will add photo to do it better, meanwhile i will try to simplify the table structure and remove that old command then see what happens.
The photo i posted has little space unwanted but still not fit the page, other has very long space tha i can't show with photo because you will see only a blank. What i don't understand is that it happens not in all pages, and with different length, always in the bottom of the layout tex box or outside of the layout text box as you can see in the photo. The left side has space inside the layout tex box and the right side has outiside the layout text box. Anyway the web site will online soon and you will see all pages.
Thanks to all for the suggestions.


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soom
post May 24 2020, 01:44 AM
Post #8





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QUOTE(pandy @ May 23 2020, 10:51 PM) *

Thanks. I've looked at the image but I'm not totally sure what space you refer to. Is it the space at left and bottom of the left textbox with gray-ish background? Or that the dark blue bar at the bottom doesn't go all the way to the right? Or something else?



The unwanted space is always at bottom of the layout text box, the width of the pages is always correct, not ever stretching. Are the 2 spaces, left and right, on the gray backgroud and on the white. The dark blue bar is ok. Thanks
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pandy
post May 24 2020, 07:45 AM
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Just about everything seems to have a height. For example for the main table you have height="2374" then all TRs and TDs I checked have their own heights. The height for the table will cause it to stretch to that height. I'm pretty sure all the heights together won't add up either, which can cause a mess. Pretty sure this causes the extra space.

There are also properties like 'csheight' which I think is a proprietary Adobe attribute that probably no browser understands. Lots of other fishy stuff also like what the heck is this?

CODE
cool gridx="16" gridy="16" showgridx showgridy usegridx usegridy


So I guess an Adobe program has generated this and an old one at that. Am I right? There's also a lot of outdated stuff. SPACER we've already seen but there's more, like this in the BODY tag.

CODE
leftmargin="0" marginheight="0" marginwidth="0" topmargin="0"


Afraid the only sensible thing to do is to start over. It would be more work to try to clean this up. And once you are through with that it would in practice be a rewrite anyway.
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soom
post May 24 2020, 09:39 AM
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QUOTE(pandy @ May 24 2020, 07:45 PM) *

Just about everything seems to have a height. For example for the main table you have height="2374" then all TRs and TDs I checked have their own heights. The height for the table will cause it to stretch to that height. I'm pretty sure all the heights together won't add up either, which can cause a mess. Pretty sure this causes the extra space.

There are also properties like 'csheight' which I think is a proprietary Adobe attribute that probably no browser understands. Lots of other fishy stuff also like what the heck is this?

CODE
cool gridx="16" gridy="16" showgridx showgridy usegridx usegridy


So I guess an Adobe program has generated this and an old one at that. Am I right? There's also a lot of outdated stuff. SPACER we've already seen but there's more, like this in the BODY tag.

CODE
leftmargin="0" marginheight="0" marginwidth="0" topmargin="0"


Afraid the only sensible thing to do is to start over. It would be more work to try to clean this up. And once you are through with that it would in practice be a rewrite anyway.


I used an old adobe software, thinking could be easy to revise by knowing little html, as the website as to be a simple structure. Well will start everything from beginning, thanks to all for help me to understand the problem and not lose more time.
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pandy
post May 24 2020, 10:49 AM
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Afraid that WYSIWYG editors create far from a simple structure. Older ones typically, and explainably, use outdated and non standard stuff. The ones from the Big Companies like Adobe and MS also create a soup of their own proprietary stuff that only their own programs understand. Afraid you hit all buttons with that one.

I would advice against WYSIWYG editors. You always end up having to fix stuff by hand anyway and then you may not understand what you do.

If you still want to go that way, which is understandable, look for a program that at least says it's standard compliant. There used to be a free one called KompoZer that was said to be good. But when I looked for the link to it I realized it was discontinued years ago. So alas I don't know what to recommend if you don't want to learn to write HTML by hand. Maybe Christian is more updated.

Even if you find a WYSIWYG that's standard compliant and writes valid HTML/CSS, I'll eat my hat if it doesn't still produce bloat. They always do. Like the one you used that created way to many tables and used way to many attributes.

Good luck and welcome back. I hope we can offer more constructive help if you do. smile.gif
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Christian J
post May 24 2020, 11:55 AM
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QUOTE(pandy @ May 24 2020, 05:49 PM) *

Maybe Christian is more updated.

No. blush.gif

Seems people have used a lot of templates the last decade(?). I'm sure it's possible plenty with the above layout (header, two columns, footer), and the HTML might be at least a little better than that from an editor. Changing colors and fonts may require some editing of CSS though.

Others may use Blog templates to create web pages.
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pandy
post May 24 2020, 12:41 PM
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Don't like donuts. Don't do MySpace.
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That's an idea! Also, all those examples of CSS layouts that were around some years ago could be used as templates. Just fill'em up with some Ps and headings.
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soom
post May 25 2020, 12:38 AM
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QUOTE(pandy @ May 24 2020, 10:49 PM) *

Afraid that WYSIWYG editors create far from a simple structure. Older ones typically, and explainably, use outdated and non standard stuff. The ones from the Big Companies like Adobe and MS also create a soup of their own proprietary stuff that only their own programs understand. Afraid you hit all buttons with that one.

I would advice against WYSIWYG editors. You always end up having to fix stuff by hand anyway and then you may not understand what you do.

If you still want to go that way, which is understandable, look for a program that at least says it's standard compliant. There used to be a free one called KompoZer that was said to be good. But when I looked for the link to it I realized it was discontinued years ago. So alas I don't know what to recommend if you don't want to learn to write HTML by hand. Maybe Christian is more updated.

Even if you find a WYSIWYG that's standard compliant and writes valid HTML/CSS, I'll eat my hat if it doesn't still produce bloat. They always do. Like the one you used that created way to many tables and used way to many attributes.

Good luck and welcome back. I hope we can offer more constructive help if you do. smile.gif



I am trying Bluegriffon now, do you know it?
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pandy
post May 25 2020, 04:11 PM
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Nope. But it has many similarities to KompoZer from what I read. My guess is it's a good choice as WYSIWYG editors go.
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