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> What should I do Before I give up programming?
shivajikobardan
post Jan 14 2023, 10:18 AM
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I'm in the verge of giving up programming and wondering what could I do before I give up to make sure I did what everyone did.

I've a bachelors degree in computer science. I didn't do it as well as I'd have liked to do, but that degree has gave me familiarity with most terms used in basic programming.

I spent last 3 months working on web development(I'm learning MERN). I learnt html,css,bootstrap, javascript and react till date(In bootcamp), but I failed to learn React. Even javascript, i'm no expert at. Even css, I learnt the basics but I'm not an expert when it comes to building half decent sites. Same for bootstrap. I can carve a site using html,css,bootstrap but it won't look good. I was completely impossible to learn when it came to react. Whenever I saw usage of useEffect and useState hooks and we start making changes in 10 different files for it, it confused me and I understood nothing.

I had access to world's best resources to learn books, tutorials, blogs, youtube, udemy etc. I had access to forums like this to get help and support but still this was tough for me.

I feel unlucky, sad and hopeless atm. Friends who were weaker than me in conventional college studies and academia have done jobs and internships but I'm failing to even learn something properly. I'm not jealous of them but just feel trash about myself.

People say do projects to learn but I really don't know how that works. For eg: https://codepen.io/pelko/pen/MWBpNmL This project. I make stupid stuffs like these and can't produce a good output that is playable. It's too hard for me.
These are some of my projects.
https://htmlcssbasicsite999.netlify.app/

https://counterapp999.netlify.app/

https://dicegame999.netlify.app/

https://digitalclock999.netlify.app/

https://portfoliosite999.netlify.app/


I did all these projects without looking any tutorials.

I keep forgetting how I built something time and again. I nowadays try my best to add documentation though.

I'm 70% sure to give up programming but still I"d like to make sure I follow advices from fellow forum users about it who've spent their life around programming.

In 3 months, I am seeing no progress, except few days like:

1) When I carved a site on my own using html,css without looking tutorials.

2) When I carved a site on my own using bootstrap without looking tutorials.

My problems:

1) I've not break through'ed in programming. If I can make anything with javascript that's over 500 lines of code, I'd consider that a breakthrough. I'm aware LOC aren't a good metric but please try to understand what I'm trying to say. A big application using programming.

2) Even in css, I failed to make presentable sites. The coding bootcamp I feel is going too fast as well. Same for bootstrap, I made sites but I failed ot create beautiful sites. People recommend me frontendmentor.io but IDK what to do there? It looks sketchy to me. If there is something that can teach me css, I'd be so grateful.

3) After watching tutorials, I can't repeat what they've done in tutorial without watching the tutorial of project even though I understand each and every step they do in project.

4) I still am not fluent in ES6. I can't think in ES6. Arrow functions, map, reduce etc. I Understand them, but using them is different ballgame.

If you understand my situation, please guide me. I don't need roadmaps, any more tutorials but plain old guidance and advice on what to do by people who went through this situation



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Christian J
post Jan 14 2023, 02:05 PM
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QUOTE(shivajikobardan @ Jan 14 2023, 04:18 PM) *

I'm in the verge of giving up programming

What is your goal, to work with front-end web development? I'm not up to date on this business myself, but my impression is that most web developers don't know a lot about what they're doing.

QUOTE
I've a bachelors degree in computer science. I didn't do it as well as I'd have liked to do, but that degree has gave me familiarity with most terms used in basic programming.

Then you likely know more than me (I'm just self-taught) and 99% of other web developers already. Of course there's often a difference between what's taught in school and what's actually done at work places.

QUOTE
I spent last 3 months working on web development(I'm learning MERN). I learnt html,css,bootstrap, javascript and react till date(In bootcamp), but I failed to learn React. Even javascript, i'm no expert at. Even css, I learnt the basics but I'm not an expert when it comes to building half decent sites. Same for bootstrap.

I personally don't care much for javascript libraries like Bootstrap or React, but I suppose it's the industry standard these days. Most developers using them likely only have minimal knowledge about what they do. See also https://www.quirksmode.org/blog/archives/20...with_the_t.html

As for "real" javascript (that is, not ready-made script libraries), I assume the few people that can be considered experts (I'm certainly not one) don't work with simple things like installing javascript libraries or developing ordinary web sites. Perhaps some of them create the actual libraries, or work for major tech companies.

QUOTE
I can carve a site using html,css,bootstrap but it won't look good.

Maybe you simply don't like the artistic side of front-end web design? Normally I suppose a graphic designer creates a mockup of a website's visual theme, and then another one adds the HTML, CSS and javascript to make it work, while a third one creates the server-side scripting and database.

QUOTE
Friends who were weaker than me in conventional college studies and academia have done jobs and internships but I'm failing to even learn something properly.

Maybe you're trying to learn too many things at once? Perhaps you should focus on the parts you feel strong at, and/or that there's a market demand for.

QUOTE
People say do projects to learn but I really don't know how that works.

I've learned most things by trying to help others on forums like this one. Maybe you could make a website for someone for free, or help someone maintain their existing site?

QUOTE
For eg: https://codepen.io/pelko/pen/MWBpNmL This project. I make stupid stuffs like these and can't produce a good output that is playable. It's too hard for me.

That looks complicated, I doubt I could do something like that.

QUOTE
My problems:

1) I've not break through'ed in programming. If I can make anything with javascript that's over 500 lines of code, I'd consider that a breakthrough. I'm aware LOC aren't a good metric but please try to understand what I'm trying to say. A big application using programming.

Do you mean you haven't found an idea for such a large project? Or do you mean that the project became too complicated?

QUOTE
4) I still am not fluent in ES6. I can't think in ES6.

Is that another name for ECMAScript6 (which is basically javascript)? I had to google that (MERN too).

QUOTE
Arrow functions, map, reduce etc. I Understand them, but using them is different ballgame.

I have no idea what that is. blush.gif
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Jason Knight
post Jan 15 2023, 06:57 AM
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I've been programming for so long -- since '77 -- that you'd THINK it would be hard for me to remember what it's like to be a beginner.

It isn't. Why? Because most of the knowledge apart from basic logic and implementation I had even just a few years ago is obsolete today. Much less anything prior to around 20 years ago. My knowledge of Pascal, Ada, 16 and 8 bit assembly doesn't exactly pay the bills. The assembly part I still do for fun -- after all I'm the guy who didn't get the memo "people don't write games for DOS anymore" -- but it's not exactly in demand.

And that plays to one of the earliest lessons I learned. To truly thrive as a programmer you need three things:

1) Great organizational and planning skills. 90% of coding "failures" actually happen before a single line of code is written. Think about what needs to be done and how you're going to organize your data before you lay down a single line of code.

2) Great research skills. This includes being able to recognize when a learning resource... how to put this politely... isn't quite right. Old resources can often lead you to outdated and outmoded solutions to problems. This is why Stack Overflow -- whilst often your best bet -- can have problems due to "web rot". Old answers that have not aged well. Similarly there are resources that are a bit... scummy. W3Schools for example that spent decades pretending to have anything to do with the W3C, has serious issues with "false simplicity" and a lack of credible or complete information, and mostly exists as a marketing scam to try and funnel people into their 100% farm fresh USDA approved prairie pie "certifications" that are worth less than a used sheet of bog roll.

It's why I keep pointing people at MDN for HTML, CSS, and JavaScript... and PHP.net for PHP.

It's not just about the ability to look things up, but knowing when you need to. ALL of these modern technologies are seeing massive overhauls and improvements at about a two year interval, to the point that web software is very quickly becoming like hardware. Which is to say that 3 years is obsolete, five years is the scrap heap... and as such developers of every stripe should be building and planning on that schedule. And if indeed we hold to that 3-5 year cycle, what good is a piece of paper saying you completed four years of college?

That's why many -- not all, but most -- "career educators" are near useless. I've only dealt with a handful that had any business opening their mouths about the subjects they were allegedly qualified to teach. Instead they just fill kids heads with outmoded outdated information... and a focus on garbage "programming models" that haven't been relevant to real development since the 1960's. Or worse, peddling whatever is currently "hot and trendy' as the solution to every problem. OR EVEN WORSE whatever it is the college is getting financial kickbacks on teaching. See Adobe and Microsoft's supposed "web software".

Which is why you'll find a lot of employers who actually have nothing but contempt for "college educated programmers". I know from personal experience more than once I've had to as project lead un-train all the rubbish my underlings had their heads filled with by their schooling that had not a single blasted thing to do with how programming actually works or should be done.

I feel you on how hard it is to separate the wheat from the chaff.

3) A love of learning. You HAVE to keep learning, keep thinking, and keep pushing forwards. Again this stuff keeps changing, and the moment you stop learning is the moment the rest of the world leaves you behind.

I think this is where a lot of people get hung up is they seem to think that programming is something you can "learn one language once and be set for life". Programming is more like playing music... and the old joke: "How do you get to Carnegie Hall".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=189Zm69kt10

I still catch myself three or four times a year having to relearn something I already "know how to do" and that's just the nature of the beast.

All that said, I do think people coming into programming are hobbled by these really quirky and cryptic languages. Believe it or not assembly language is easy. There's only around four dozen commands, real-world you only use half of them regularly, and how it works is basic arithmetic. What it is not is easy as you end up having to brute-force implement everything. Languages like Pascal and Ada use real words instead of abbreviations and symbology. This results in being easier to learn; point of fact Pascal was created as an educational language for that very reason.

C Syntax is huffing ugly as sin. Pascal is verbose and wet, but it's easier to understand. Likewise a lot of errors that languages like C, PHP, Java, and JavaScript allow to compile and/or execute would never make it past the compiler of Wirth family languages (Pascal, Modula, Ada).

The old joke about shooting yourself in the foot with programming languages. C you shoot yourself in the foot. Pascal won't let you shoot yourself in the foot. Ada confiscates the gun and calls mental health professionals.

But what do I know? 32 years later and I'm still not convinced this is a joke:
https://www.gnu.org/fun/jokes/unix-hoax.html

Let's just say "C is not my favorite programming language"

This post has been edited by Jason Knight: Jan 15 2023, 06:59 AM
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shivajikobardan
post Jan 20 2023, 10:47 PM
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can you  suggest a micro level roadmap on what should I do now in order to learn programming?
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Christian J
post Jan 21 2023, 12:12 PM
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A programmer is just someone that writes programs, just like the examples you linked to. There are lots of programming languages, and nobody knows all of them, so first decide what you want to work with, and then learn the skills that are required for that.

For webdesign, there's a difference between front-end, like HTML, CSS and javascript (in practice I suspect most professionals use templates and javascript libraries) and back-end, like PHP and databases. Most people likely start learning either front-end or back-end skills, not all at once.

There are also lots of other professions, with often completely different requirements. For example you could do:

- Windows or Linux programs

- Mobile apps

- Video games

- Embedded consumer electronics (like in cars or microwave ovens)

- Industrial control applications

- Security research

- Teaching of new students
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pandy
post Jan 21 2023, 02:19 PM
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QUOTE(Christian J @ Jan 14 2023, 08:05 PM) *

I have no idea what that is. blush.gif


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