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pandy
My computer has broken down. Yeah, again. I just bought a very slightly used one with a lot better components that I would otherwise afford.


It comes with Win 10 (Pro), I think. The guy hated it himself and recommended me to install 7 or 8 instead. 7 seems the least annoying, but support ends in less than 3 years. 8 seems pretty horrid too. So maybe I should just go with 10?

I've read about the murder of the start menu, that updates are forced and that you have no control of what and when. Is it as bad as I've heard?

pandy
Also, I'm on my phone and won't be around much until I have a computer again. I'll of course read any answers to this thread though. :-)
Christian J
QUOTE(pandy @ Sep 22 2017, 10:42 PM) *

It comes with Win 10 (Pro), I think.

Consider a clean reinstall, just in case...

QUOTE
8 seems pretty horrid too. So maybe I should just go with 10?


Yes, 8 (and 8.1?) is worse than 10 from what I read, so it's between 7, 10 or Linux.

QUOTE
I've read about the murder of the start menu, that updates are forced and that you have no control of what and when. Is it as bad as I've heard?

Perhaps with default settings, but a lot can be changed or removed.

There is a Start menu, and you can customize it and remove unwanted junk from it.

The flat user interface is a slight annoyance (hard to recognize clickable button, or if a menu needs to be scrolled), and user settings are found both in the old Control Panel and the new Settings, but it's no worse than the mess in previous Windows versions.

Forced updates can be postponed by setting your Internet connection type to "metered". You can't avoid security updates this way though, but even then they shouldn't restart the OS without consent.

I used third-party tools to disable as much spying as possible, and I of course wouldn't use any MS Cloud services or online accounts.

The security settings might be problematic in some cases. For example, my XAMPP installation is not allowed to access files in My Documents. Maybe it's possible to fix this somehow, but I simply moved my projects into XAMPP instead.

QUOTE
until I have a computer again.

Haven't you recieved it yet?
pandy
I read that a cable connection can't be made metered. Not true? And if it can, can you somehow choose what updates to install or is it "install one and get it all"?

The start menu is a lesser problem since there are alternatives. But i've heard it's animated, filled with popup ads and that you can't order things as you want.

The flat look is a big problem for me. I found there is still a classic skin. Doesn't choosing that help?
Christian J
QUOTE(pandy @ Sep 22 2017, 11:58 PM) *

I read that a cable connection can't be made metered. Not true?

No, you can set that yourself (so far).

QUOTE
And if it can, can you somehow choose what updates to install or is it "install one and get it all"?

With metered on, you only get security updates, with it off I think you get everything. I've read it's possible to uninstall individual updates afterwards, in case something's broken, not sure.

QUOTE
The start menu is a lesser problem since there are alternatives. But i've heard it's animated, filled with popup ads and that you can't order things as you want.

Ads can also show up in Windows Explorer. wub.gif But it's possible to disable all of it (so far). You can change menu order too, but I'm not too experienced with it in any Windows version.

The Taskbar is a bit different (not sure about Win7). When you start a program, it's rectangular Taskbar button shows up where the Quick launch shortcut is located, pushing all the other quick launch shortcuts to the right. This took a while to get used to.

QUOTE
The flat look is a big problem for me. I found there is still a classic skin. Doesn't choosing that help?

Haven't bothered changing. It mostly a minor annoyance to me, like today's browser skins.
pandy
You are probably right and I should go with 10. It's certainly the easiest and cheapest since it comes with.
pandy
I'm not good at hardware, but I think it's a good buy, probably overkill for me.

Processor i5 6600 K, PS 750W, GeForce 1060 6GB, 16 GB RAM (DDR4), a 250 GB SSD and a nice case with some kind of cooler and a lot of fans. ;-)
Christian J
Looks like great specs, even for a gaming PC. Is it watercooled?
pandy
Forgot to ask about the cooling. Haven't had anything like that before. Together with the screen i bought earlier I have feeling this will be a whole other experience than what I'm used too. But I didn't expect to have to buy a new computer this soon, so it's water and bread for me now.

Didn't see your question above. No, don't have it yet and haven't paid anything yet either. Hopefully the guy can deliver it himself on thursday. Otherwise it's DHL. Hope it works out, don't know hiw to do with payment otherwise
pandy
And why the heck isn't it easy to change the language for the spell checker on a phone? :mad:
Christian J
Thought you meant water cooled when you wrote "some kind of cooler"...
pandy
I don't know what kinds there are.

It looks like the offspring of a fan and a destillery. Sadly it's cheap but it gets good reviews. It's called "Be quiet! Pure Rock". biggrin.gif
Christian J
That's a CPU air cooler. Just be careful that the motherboard doesn't become damaged during shipping, since the heat sink is a bit heavy. My PC shipped without any obvious problems though.
pandy
Plan was the guy would deliver it himself on thursday when he was going to Stockholm anyway, but that has been changed to next week. He's changed his mind and is now reluctant to ship it - and he works at Dustin and can use their boxes and other stuff for safe transport!

Worst case scenario - I fetch it. By bus. :-( Well, could be nice actually. It's in Strängnäs where I haven't been since my teens. Guess I could make it an "utflykt".

We'll see. I'll talk to him tonight.
Christian J
You could also repair the old PC. I always keep the last one for backup when I get a new.
pandy
I'll fetch it myself tomorrow. I'll spend 4 huours on a bus. But can't wait any longer. I get kind if nentally blocked without a computer. It's going to be nice weather and I'm planning on some sightseeing. Haven't been to Strängnäs since I was a kid but as i remeber it it's a pretty little town. And I can get some points in GPS game I'm playing too. biggrin.gif

Yeah, I'm planning to keep the old one, buy some cheep parts and put Linux on it. I think the graphics card and the PS are good. It's a good case anyway. rolleyes.gif
pandy
I'll fetch it myself tomorrow. I'll spend 4 huours on a bus. But I can't wait any longer. I get kind if mentally blocked without a computer. It's going to be nice weather and I'm planning on some sightseeing. Haven't been to Strängnäs since I was a kid but as I remember it it's a pretty little town. And I can get some points in a GPS game I'm playing too. biggrin.gif

Yeah, I'm planning to keep the old one, buy some cheep parts and put Linux on it. I think the graphics card and the PS is good. It's a good case anyway. rolleyes.gif
pandy
Oh, I decided on win10. The guy will format and make a fresh installation so we can test run before putting it in a box.

I think the best thing will be to use a real keyboard again and to see what I'm writing...
pandy
Well, the computer is fast. smile.gif But the look and feel of Windows 10... My eyes hurt already - not joking. All this verbose text everywhere, the colors, no proper borders, program windows float into eachother *visually*... I don\t even manage to choose the color I want on the desktop. And yeah, the keyboard settings are screwed up somehow. That\s next.

Isn\t this supposed to be fun. It isn\t. And to explain, I can\t type a question mark, prim or paranthesis. ninja.gif
pandy
Fixed the keyboard. Still sucks. Not even my beloved k-mel looks as it should. ninja.gif
pandy
Christian, do you have Pro or some other more advanced version of 10? I have Home. I find no way to make an ethernet connection metered. sad.gif

And what's with these "apps"? Just a hip word for applications/programs or more like apps on a phone?
Christian J
QUOTE(pandy @ Sep 27 2017, 01:43 PM) *

Well, the computer is fast. smile.gif But the look and feel of Windows 10... My eyes hurt already - not joking. All this verbose text everywhere, the colors, no proper borders,

Not sure if this one's any better: https://www.howtogeek.com/133405/how-to-get...k-on-windows-8/ (I've become used to the flat theme myself though).

But first of all clean up all the bloat and spyware which comes enabled by default, I used https://www.safer-networking.org/spybot-anti-beacon/ (though it has not been updated for a while). A couple other sites I've used for manual checking:

https://www.ghacks.net/2017/03/20/turn-off-...a-double-click/
https://www.cyberpunkforums.com/viewtopic.php?id=3692

You can also re-enable Photo Viewer in the registry: https://www.howtogeek.com/225844/how-to-mak...-on-windows-10/

QUOTE
program windows float into eachother *visually*...

When does that happen? I think I've experienced something like that during Taskbar operations.

QUOTE
I don\t even manage to choose the color I want on the desktop.

That should work once you've entered the license key.

QUOTE
Isn\t this supposed to be fun.

The real fun is that this new mobile/touch screen design was done because Microsoft wanted the same Windows look on both PCs and smartphones. Then nobody wanted to buy their smartphones anyway. Oops. mellow.gif

Christian J
QUOTE(pandy @ Sep 27 2017, 04:13 PM) *

Christian, do you have Pro or some other more advanced version of 10? I have Home. I find no way to make an ethernet connection metered. sad.gif

I have Home too. Go to Windows Settings (the cog wheel icon) > Network & Internet > Change Connection Properties, and enable Metered Connection.

While you're at it, go to Win Update > Advanced > Choose how updates are delivered, and disable everything. There are many more similar annoyances, see the links I posted above.

QUOTE
And what's with these "apps"? Just a hip word for applications/programs or more like apps on a phone?

Both, I think. The plan is likely to make users buy programs from the Windows Store (similar to Apple's and Google's walled gardens) instead of downloading free software. Most likely they try to make it more complicated and scary to download free software, and that way herd users into the Windows Store, so expect even more "security warnings" etc in the future. wacko.gif

There's also a version called Windows 10 S, where you are only allowed to install programs from the Windows Store.
pandy
Thanks. I'll look into the links tomorrow. My head spins right now.

QUOTE(Christian J @ Sep 27 2017, 04:46 PM) *

I have Home too. Go to Windows Settings (the cog wheel icon) > Network & Internet > Change Connection Properties, and enable Metered Connection.


But how? sad.gif

Click to view attachment

QUOTE
While you're at it, go to Win Update > Advanced > Choose how updates are delivered, and disable everything. There are many more similar annoyances, see the links I posted above.


Ouch, that's a nasty one.

QUOTE
There's also a version called Windows 10 S, where you are only allowed to install programs from the Windows Store.


For real? And people buy that? Maybe it's meant as some kind of semi kiosk mode? If you want to give a severly demented person a computer or use it as a learning machine at kindergarten maybe this offers some kind of security and still lets them play with installing stuff. ohmy.gif

About the floating windows, I meant in my mind. Big white areas without borders, with too much text and flashy icons and everything spread out instead of ordered in nice, compact columns and sections, I can't easily separate what belongs where. It does actually hurt my eyes. They get tired. Probably I stare to try to see something that isn't there.

I don't know. I've always defended MS back in the "evil empire days". I never thought they were quite as bad as people painted them. But now I don't know. Problem is, there's nowhere to go. Linux doesn't really do it for me. I can't use my favourite programs. Yeah, I know, Wine or whatever is used these days, but it isn't the same. And many Linux programs that could be good are in eternal beta stage.

So, at the end of the day, who will own our asses the most? MS or Google? ninja.gif
pandy
BTW, several years ago now I said programs had started to look like web pages. Security related applications led the way, AV and Firewalls. Big icons, all backgrounds white or in some horrible strong color, i.e. no chrome. No menus, huge buttons instead. Now the whole freeking OS looks like that.

Speaking of icons, what happened to small, easily recognized icons in primal colors, I wonder? I don't want to study them in detail for minutes to discover what they may symbolize. Icons should be like traffic signs. High contrast, clear and stong colors and very, very easy to identify and understand.
Christian J
QUOTE(pandy @ Sep 28 2017, 01:55 AM) *

That looks like the old Control Panel, that they're gradually phasing out. Now there's a second one called "Windows Settings". Go to Start and click the cog wheel icon in the bottom left, then Network & Internet > Change Connection Properties, and enable Metered Connection.

QUOTE
For real? And people buy that?

No idea, but some seem to buy Chromebooks too. Apparently Win 10 S came with some Surface Laptops, but buyers where given the option to upgrade to full Windows.

QUOTE
Maybe it's meant as some kind of semi kiosk mode? If you want to give a severly demented person a computer or use it as a learning machine at kindergarten maybe this offers some kind of security and still lets them play with installing stuff. ohmy.gif

Yes, and maybe people demented by used to smartphones and tablet use will like it. wacko.gif

QUOTE
I don't know. I've always defended MS back in the "evil empire days". I never thought they were quite as bad as people painted them. But now I don't know.

The dirty tricks they've used to trick Win7 users to upgrade to 10 were a give-away for me. As for the spyware, the app store and the new UI, I think they just try to imitate Google and Apple in a clumsy way (kind of typical for MS).

QUOTE
So, at the end of the day, who will own our asses the most? MS or Google? ninja.gif

So far it's possible to fight Google by being careful, and you don't need any of the MS cloud services. But if MS starts spying on your file system and keyboard input it sure becomes hard to defend yourself. OTOH I can't imagine Win 10 Enterprise clients accepting that MS spies on their company secrets, and even if MS would just spy on pesky Win Home users I think the loss of trust might affect their Enterprise sales as well.
pandy
QUOTE
That looks like the old Control Panel, that they're gradually phasing out. Now there's a second one called "Windows Settings". Go to Start and click the cog wheel icon in the bottom left, then Network & Internet > Change Connection Properties, and enable Metered Connection.


It leads to exactly the same page. What am I looking for? A "link on the page", a menu option?

Windows has upgraded itself with this creator's somthing or other I've read about. Some sites say what I'm trying to do is possible after that, but alas... Most sites just say it's impossible. But I assumed they were old, since you say it is doable.
Christian J
QUOTE(pandy @ Sep 28 2017, 02:14 AM) *

BTW, several years ago now I said programs had started to look like web pages.

Lately I've started seeing web pages with "hamburger" icons in their menus, just like the Chrome browser. Sometimes it's several hamburger in a row. wacko.gif

QUOTE
Big icons, all backgrounds white or in some horrible strong color, i.e. no chrome. No menus, huge buttons instead. Now the whole freeking OS looks like that.

Maybe it's an adaption to small phone screens. I doubt it's for disabled users. unsure.gif

Christian J
QUOTE(pandy @ Sep 28 2017, 01:37 PM) *

QUOTE
That looks like the old Control Panel, that they're gradually phasing out. Now there's a second one called "Windows Settings". Go to Start and click the cog wheel icon in the bottom left, then Network & Internet > Change Connection Properties, and enable Metered Connection.


It leads to exactly the same page. What am I looking for? A "link on the page", a menu option?

You didn't click "Change Adapter Options" further down then? Here's the right one:

Click to view attachment

QUOTE
Windows has upgraded itself with this creator's somthing or other I've read about. Some sites say what I'm trying to do is possible after that, but alas... Most sites just say it's impossible. But I assumed they were old, since you say it is doable.

Sounds strange, I have Creator's update too but I've also done some customizations (as mentioned before).
pandy
QUOTE(Christian J @ Sep 27 2017, 04:33 PM) *

Not sure if this one's any better: https://www.howtogeek.com/133405/how-to-get...k-on-windows-8/ (I've become used to the flat theme myself though).


Yeah, I saw that. Maybe I'll try it later. The most annoying now is the limited number of colors I can choose from. I found the Control Color setting that's hidden somewhere. There is a color mixer that lets me change 15 patches. But those colors are only used for window borders, start menu and taskbars. For the desktop I'm stuck with the presets.

See, I've got used to having my desktop in a special shade of gray. An image editor I use have the interface in different shades of gray only, even icons. That's so your perception of color won't be tinted. I found it so restful that I made windows like that too, as far as possible, different shades of gray for everything I could change.
Christian J
Did you find the Metered Connection setting? I'm getting a bit worried since I'm about to change ISP.

QUOTE(pandy @ Sep 28 2017, 02:23 PM) *

The most annoying now is the limited number of colors I can choose from. I found the Control Color setting that's hidden somewhere. There is a color mixer that lets me change 15 patches. But those colors are only used for window borders, start menu and taskbars. For the desktop I'm stuck with the presets.

Not sure what you mean here, I can just right-click on the desktop, chose Personalize, and change Background Picture to solid color. You can make custom colors too.

QUOTE
See, I've got used to having my desktop in a special shade of gray. An image editor I use have the interface in different shades of gray only, even icons. That's so your perception of color won't be tinted. I found it so restful that I made windows like that too, as far as possible, different shades of gray for everything I could change.

If all else fails I guess you could create a solid color background image. tongue.gif

pandy
[quote]
Did you find the Metered Connection setting? I'm getting a bit worried since I'm about to change ISP.
[/quote]

Yeah, I that's what I meant. It leads to exactly the same page as I posted a screen cap of before.


[quote]Not sure what you mean here, I can just right-click on the desktop, chose Personalize, and change Background Picture to solid color. You can make custom colors too.[/quote]

There's just 24 patches for the background and 48 for the chrome. No custom colors.

Click to view attachment

I found though google though that you can type "color control" in the Run box and you get to customize 15 patches for the chrome.



[quote]See, I've got used to having my desktop in a special shade of gray. An image editor I use have the interface in different shades of gray only, even icons. That's so your perception of color won't be tinted. I found it so restful that I made windows like that too, as far as possible, different shades of gray for everything I could change.[/quote]
If all else fails I guess you could create a solid color background image. tongue.gif
[/quote]

That never gets really solid. biggrin.gif
pandy
I don't know why the quotes are missed upp either. cool.gif
Christian J
QUOTE(pandy @ Sep 28 2017, 07:37 PM) *

Yeah, I that's what I meant. It leads to exactly the same page as I posted a screen cap of before.

I get to "your" page by clicking "Change adapter options" further down. unsure.gif

I can also go to my page by clicking Ethernet (in the left column in my screenshot) after next clicking the connected network shown on the right.

QUOTE
There's just 24 patches for the background and 48 for the chrome. No custom colors.

That's very odd. Have you activated the product key yet? That and the Spybot utility are the only things I can think of that makes my installation unusual. Try both those things, maybe they unlock hidden menus. Did you actually install Creator's update, or just download it? Have you rebooted afterwards? cool.gif
pandy
I have rebooted, but not done anything actively. Now they have announced a major update, so big that they let me schedule it... Maybe that's the thing?

I misunderstood you before. I did click Adapter Options. That's all I've got. I don't have the option you used.

Click to view attachment
Christian J
QUOTE(pandy @ Sep 28 2017, 09:54 PM) *

Now they have announced a major update, so big that they let me schedule it... Maybe that's the thing?

Don't think so, if you already got Creator's, I got another one too the other day.

QUOTE
I misunderstood you before. I did click Adapter Options.

Don't do that. cool.gif

QUOTE
That's all I've got. I don't have the option you used.

What happens when you click on "Ethernet" in the left column, and then click on the connected network that shows up to the right?
pandy
Click to view attachment
pandy
cool.gif cool.gif cool.gif cool.gif cool.gif

Click to view attachment

Now to my next question. I suppose there is no way to review and choose the updates I want? It's nothing or all?
Christian J
Where did you find it?

You can't choose updates, but maybe uninstall them individually afterwards.
pandy
tongue.gif

pandy
QUOTE(Christian J @ Sep 28 2017, 11:58 PM) *

Where did you find it?


You know I possess seriously leet skillz. cool.gif

No, it was the big update. Actually, I thought I would pull down all updates, but the notification came before I had time to do it and since they said it would take time I scheduled it for later.

QUOTE
You can't choose updates, but maybe uninstall them individually afterwards.


So if there is one I want I'll get all the ones I've held back uptil then? Lovely. IPB Image

Talking about uninstalling, if I get rid of the silly apps and programs I don't want, they will just push them on me again, right?

pandy
Better! biggrin.gif

Click to view attachment

Can you explain to me how I can have two desktop.ini side by side though? unsure.gif
Christian J
QUOTE(pandy @ Sep 29 2017, 12:06 AM) *

Talking about uninstalling, if I get rid of the silly apps and programs I don't want, they will just push them on me again, right?

Haven't checked actually. At least they stay away from the Start menu.

It's perhaps a good idea to check settings after major updates, some say they can get reset.

QUOTE
Can you explain to me how I can have two desktop.ini side by side though?

I don't even get one ini, despite showing hidden files (I recall Vista displayed them, though). Is it something that the Classic Start menu added? unsure.gif
pandy
Dunno. I found and installed that one right off. Have you tried it? I like it. If you Shift-click you get the normal windows 10 menu, both worlds.
pandy
At least one of them is probably from the menu. But how can two identically named files exist in the same folder? Somthing must make each one unique but it isn't visible to us. blink.gif

CODE

[.ShellClassInfo]
LocalizedResourceName=@%SystemRoot%\system32\shell32.dll,-21769


CODE

IconResource=%SystemRoot%\system32\imageres.dll,-183
[LocalizedFileNames]
Internet Explorer.lnk=@%windir%\System32\ie4uinit.exe,-731


Well, thank you for your help. Tomorrow I'll get my old drives in and start sorting and installing. I decided not to rush this time.
Christian J
I almost never use the Start menu myself, so it's just a minor issue to me.

QUOTE(pandy @ Sep 29 2017, 12:39 AM) *

But how can two identically named files exist in the same folder? Somthing must make each one unique but it isn't visible to us. blink.gif

No idea. Do they persist after rebooting? If not it might be a UI bug. Didn't understand the code you posted, where did you find it? unsure.gif

QUOTE
Tomorrow I'll get my old drives in and start sorting and installing. I decided not to rush this time.

I'd use a HDD for music and videos, it's fast enough for them. Save the SSD space for the OS and programs.

pandy
QUOTE(Christian J @ Sep 29 2017, 01:49 PM) *

Didn't understand the code you posted, where did you find it? unsure.gif

Just the content of the ini files.

QUOTE

I'd use a HDD for music and videos, it's fast enough for them. Save the SSD space for the OS and programs.


That's what I'm planning. Sadly I don't think the SSD is big enough for all programs.
Christian J
QUOTE(pandy @ Sep 30 2017, 01:04 PM) *

Just the content of the ini files.

I got curious, and found this: https://superuser.com/questions/463946/why-...ry-in-windows-7

QUOTE
Sadly I don't think the SSD is big enough for all programs.

I put most of my large programs (games) on the HDD too, only a few favorites go on the SSD.

pandy
I don't fully understand what solved that guys problem, but it seems it was related to not showing known extensions and/or system files. I of course turned all that on first thing. cool.gif

Yeah. I don't play games. Well, solitaire... blush.gif But maybe primarily put often used programs on the SSD and big, heavy programs. Must google how much free space Win10 needs. It and the crap that comes with takes up a lot of space to begin with. I've only installed K-Mel and FF and I've uninstalled some stuff too, and the disk is already 1/5 full, 42 GB used.

Sometimes I miss Win95 and the 1 GB HD I had back then. wub.gif
pandy
This is what I mean when I say everything is white. K-mel at least has nice, classic icons, but its toolbar is white in Win10. For me it's a strain on the eyes. It's not clear what is the page/work area and what is the toolbar.

Click to view attachment

In k-mel's case I could fix it by replacing the optional (patterned) background image with a solid gray one. See? Much nicer. wub.gif
Alas that can't be done with most programs.

Click to view attachment
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