 Spider "food", want text, links visible to spiders; similulator goofs |
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| Robert Baer |
 Apr 18 2011, 05:20 PM
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#1
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Novice  Group: Members Posts: 21 Joined: 18-April 11 Member No.: 14,357  |
Got this main page that has frames.
Added below that <noframes> <pre> blah blah </pre> then added a number of links like <a href="http://www.whatever.net/"></a> then ended with </noframes>. Did that so spiders would pick up the links but no extra text. The spider simulator mis-behaves in that the tile "spidered links" is included with the spidered text and not separate and not bold. Makes no difference if i use the noframes tags or not. Is there a fix? To see the code i have so far, go to the following URL and right click to view page source: http://www.oil4lessllc.org/www.subudportland.org.html You are welcome and encouraged to pass helpful comments (copy or direct) to me at robertbaer@localnet.com |
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| Brian Chandler |
Apr 18 2011, 11:03 PM
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#2
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Jocular coder Group: Members Posts: 2,460 Joined: 31-August 06 Member No.: 43 |
Links that can't be seen by the browsing user are deceptive, so it is likely that better spiders will try to ignore them anyway. I suggest you include links as part of your content.
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| pandy |
Apr 19 2011, 03:20 AM
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#3
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🌟Computer says no🌟 Group: WDG Moderators Posts: 20,730 Joined: 9-August 06 Member No.: 6 |
Are the links to other pages/sites or are they links to the framed pages?
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| Robert Baer |
Apr 20 2011, 03:19 AM
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#4
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Novice Group: Members Posts: 21 Joined: 18-April 11 Member No.: 14,357 |
QUOTE(Brian Chandler @ Apr 18 2011, 09:03 PM)  Links that can't be seen by the browsing user are deceptive, so it is likely that better spiders will try to ignore them anyway. I suggest you include links as part of your content. The problem with completing the links with text, is that the keyword count gets distorted beyond normal recognition. All of those links are completely outside anything the frames refer to. Dumb question: is there something like a meta that i could use as an alternate? At least the preformatted text part works nicely.. |
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| Robert Baer |
Apr 20 2011, 03:22 AM
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#5
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Novice Group: Members Posts: 21 Joined: 18-April 11 Member No.: 14,357 |
QUOTE(pandy @ Apr 19 2011, 01:20 AM) Are the links to other pages/sites or are they links to the framed pages? nope; all of those links are completely outside anything the frames refer to, either directly or indirectly. |
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| Brian Chandler |
Apr 20 2011, 04:16 AM
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#6
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Jocular coder Group: Members Posts: 2,460 Joined: 31-August 06 Member No.: 43 |
QUOTE The problem with completing the links with text, is that the keyword count gets distorted beyond normal recognition. What is "keyword count"? Anyway, you have a frameset page including both <frameset> and <body>, which is wrong as far as I know. And so all your links are dishonest: you are trying to fool search engines, which is exactly what search engines try to penalise. Why can't you organise your content honestly, like anyone else? Starting by scrapping frames would probably be a good idea. |
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| Brian Chandler |
Apr 20 2011, 04:18 AM
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#7
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Jocular coder Group: Members Posts: 2,460 Joined: 31-August 06 Member No.: 43 |
Incidentally, it might help to know what your "spider simulator" is. There are probably lots of them, all different, not that this affects my basic answer.
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| pandy |
Apr 20 2011, 04:45 AM
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#8
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🌟Computer says no🌟 Group: WDG Moderators Posts: 20,730 Joined: 9-August 06 Member No.: 6 |
QUOTE(Robert Baer @ Apr 20 2011, 10:22 AM) nope; all of those links are completely outside anything the frames refer to, either directly or indirectly. So a little SE-spamming? I think Google et al are too clever for that nowadays and you can probably be punished for doing it. I don't *know* that's the case, but it seems likely. |
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| Robert Baer |
Apr 21 2011, 01:59 AM
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#9
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Novice Group: Members Posts: 21 Joined: 18-April 11 Member No.: 14,357 |
QUOTE(Brian Chandler @ Apr 20 2011, 02:16 AM) QUOTE The problem with completing the links with text, is that the keyword count gets distorted beyond normal recognition. What is "keyword count"? Anyway, you have a frameset page including both <frameset> and <body>, which is wrong as far as I know. And so all your links are dishonest: you are trying to fool search engines, which is exactly what search engines try to penalise. Why can't you organise your content honestly, like anyone else? Starting by scrapping frames would probably be a good idea. OK; i do not know the correct way. but even tho it may be a good idea to scrap the frames, that is something beyond my control WRT the design of the website. Originally there were no meta tags and so ranking left a bit (to be polite) to be desired. Please be so kind to present at least a skeleton of how i should do most if not all what i want: add text for the spiders and the links for the spiders, but no test WRT the site names as one normally would have if they were complete. |
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| Robert Baer |
Apr 21 2011, 02:01 AM
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#10
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Novice Group: Members Posts: 21 Joined: 18-April 11 Member No.: 14,357 |
QUOTE(Brian Chandler @ Apr 20 2011, 02:18 AM) Incidentally, it might help to know what your "spider simulator" is. There are probably lots of them, all different, not that this affects my basic answer. I use http://www.webconfs.com/search-engine-spider-simulator.php which is the only one i know of to present. |
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| Brian Chandler |
Apr 21 2011, 03:53 AM
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#11
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Jocular coder Group: Members Posts: 2,460 Joined: 31-August 06 Member No.: 43 |
QUOTE Originally there were no meta tags and so ranking left a bit (to be polite) to be desired. Meta tags have essentially no effect on search engine ranking, so this is hard to believe. Google for 'subud portland' and your site is first, google for subud america' and it's second. What more do you expect? I don't know any particular way of adding "fake" links, or indeed of any particular ways of adding what you seem to regard of as "spider food", and for what it's worth, if I did know I wouldn't tell you. Sorry, but this site is about helping with html presentations of information, not faking search engine results. |
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| Darin McGrew |
Apr 21 2011, 09:43 AM
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#12
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WDG Member Group: Root Admin Posts: 8,365 Joined: 4-August 06 From: Mountain View, CA Member No.: 3 |
Is this article helpful?
http://htmlhelp.com/feature/seo/ |
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| Robert Baer |
Apr 22 2011, 09:40 PM
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#13
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Novice Group: Members Posts: 21 Joined: 18-April 11 Member No.: 14,357 |
QUOTE(Brian Chandler @ Apr 21 2011, 01:53 AM) QUOTE Originally there were no meta tags and so ranking left a bit (to be polite) to be desired. Meta tags have essentially no effect on search engine ranking, so this is hard to believe. Google for 'subud portland' and your site is first, google for subud america' and it's second. What more do you expect? I don't know any particular way of adding "fake" links, or indeed of any particular ways of adding what you seem to regard of as "spider food", and for what it's worth, if I did know I wouldn't tell you. Sorry, but this site is about helping with html presentations of information, not faking search engine results. The queries 'subud portland' and 'subud america' are VERY specific, what if one is looking to rent hall space --> sorry, no go. The idea is to first add keywords, which was done by adding the meta tag. Second to add a better visibility which was done by changing the title (again a meta tag). Those two are part of what i call spider food and are standard inclusions so i do not see any objection; if you know of any,please spell it out. Third was to add text to broaden the keyword search. Can dump the links. |
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| Robert Baer |
Apr 22 2011, 09:57 PM
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#14
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Novice Group: Members Posts: 21 Joined: 18-April 11 Member No.: 14,357 |
QUOTE(Darin McGrew @ Apr 21 2011, 07:43 AM) In a general sense, yes. But for my problem, no. Am going to dump the links; besides they are on another page that one of the frames refers to. |
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| Brian Chandler |
Apr 23 2011, 08:55 AM
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#15
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Jocular coder Group: Members Posts: 2,460 Joined: 31-August 06 Member No.: 43 |
QUOTE The queries 'subud portland' and 'subud america' are VERY specific, what if one is looking to rent hall space --> sorry, no go. The idea is to first add keywords, which was done by adding the meta tag. Second to add a better visibility which was done by changing the title (again a meta tag). Those two are part of what i call spider food and are standard inclusions so i do not see any objection; if you know of any,please spell it out. I think I tried to explain that in practice (whatever your "spider simulator" suggests) search engines ignore the keyword metatag, precisely because people abused it by stuffing in keywords not actually on the page. But anyway, if you want hall rental enquiries, then paid advertising is one obvious possibility. And you could investigate local "directory" type sites, or local news sites. Then look at Google maps, and make sure you are labelled as "hall for rent". I can't remember what it's called, but try searching for "imaginatorium shop" (me!) and choose google 'maps'. Mine is only for fun, since we are not a "local" business, but you are. Hope this helps -- I think this would be much more productive than trying to mess with "SEO" (a gigantic scam industry, by the way). |
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| pandy |
Apr 23 2011, 09:10 AM
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#16
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🌟Computer says no🌟 Group: WDG Moderators Posts: 20,730 Joined: 9-August 06 Member No.: 6 |
Meta keywords came about when search engines weren't capable of spidering more than a small amount of text at each site. It was a way for them to get a resume of the content on the page. Today, when SE traffic is responsible for a large part of the traffic on a site and every word is indexed and even cached, keywords have no purpose except for the numerous shady SEO "experts" that live on that people still believe in their magic. Note that I'm not saying all SEO expers are shade, far from, but forget about keywords. If you use the same approach as with your noframes links, chances are you get punished and rightly so.
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| Brian Chandler |
Apr 23 2011, 09:40 AM
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#17
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Jocular coder Group: Members Posts: 2,460 Joined: 31-August 06 Member No.: 43 |
QUOTE Meta keywords came about when search engines weren't capable of spidering more than a small amount of text at each site. It was a way for them to get a resume of the content on the page. Do you have any actual evidence that this is the case? The idea of keywords is very old, way before the web, and it's an obvious and natural function to provide keyword metadata. Personally I add keywords, not because I imagine it helps with search engines, but because it is basically the Right Thing to Do. (I don't put very much effort into it, I admit, because the practical effects are so small.) I think the standard story -- that keywords are now ignored by search engines, because of abuse -- is extremely believable. |
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| pandy |
Apr 23 2011, 09:49 AM
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#18
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🌟Computer says no🌟 Group: WDG Moderators Posts: 20,730 Joined: 9-August 06 Member No.: 6 |
Sure, SE's started to ignore them because of abuse, I'm not saying that wasn't the case. But even if there were no abuse (that would be in Shangri-La...), the reason they once were used by SEs doesn't exist today. Of course you can use keywords, or any meta tag of that type, for your own purposes.
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| Darin McGrew |
Apr 23 2011, 11:16 AM
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#19
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WDG Member Group: Root Admin Posts: 8,365 Joined: 4-August 06 From: Mountain View, CA Member No.: 3 |
Back when the world wide web was an academic tool, the academics trusted each other to specify appropriate meta-information (keywords, description, etc.) for their academic documents. I'm pretty sure that's where the meta tags came from: it was part of academic tradition.
Coincidentally, early search engines could index only the first few kB of each document. That included the meta-information in the head element, but often only some of the actual content. But I don't think the meta tags came about because of the search engines. The meta tags existed back when Yahoo! was a manually compiled directory of the web, before search engine spiders existed. BTW, thanks for the nostalgia... |
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| pandy |
Apr 23 2011, 11:32 AM
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#20
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🌟Computer says no🌟 Group: WDG Moderators Posts: 20,730 Joined: 9-August 06 Member No.: 6 |
No, I don't think that either, but that was why the SEs used them. Brian, I realized first now that I expressed myself clumsily and that you thought I meant SE's invented keywords. I should have said "came to use" or something similar, not "came about". I claim ESL...
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