Is it time for WDG to chang gears?, My case for why things need to change Options

[NovaArgon]

Hi guys

I just wanted to get your ideas and thoughts on something.

With all due respect I think now a days most people are just trying to get-r-done ya know what I mean.

Please don't take this the wrong way because its not just this forum its happens on a few others that I'm on as well but I think some people try to become very knowledgeable about everything or they are really smart and it just happens over time and thats amazing. I have no idea how you guys do it but it seems like once you start seeing that you have put in way more hours studying and learning than everyones else, you start to expect others to put in hours trying to learn to.

In my very limited experince most people just want to know the answer to their current question. The less a person knows the more follow up questions they may have but I think after awhile the really advance people like some of you get a question that says

"How do I do X?" or "Whats wrong with X?"

but you here something like

"I have been using out dated code and now something I'm trying to do isn't working so could you help learn what I need to fix it?"

I don't think anyone expects you to take every person you reply to under your wing and coach them step by step how to do something but if you could do that to 1 or 2 people a day it would make a good example for everyone else. The way things are going more and more people are going to see someone that doesn't have a clue and just drop a link or two down and think they have helped them.

I'm only saying all this because its really frustrating when someone replies to your post that has thousands of posts and you are so excited that they replied because you are sure they know everything in the world but then they give you a link to something your not even really sure what it is and the worst part is the link they gave you is in general terms and you don't know where to put any of the code and to find out there is a small book on all the different circumstances when its right and wrong to use the code and half the time thats just the first step or it turns up more problems.

The only reason i'm telling you how I feel about all this is because I posted on http://www.webmaster-talk.com/ yesterday about the same time I was talking to you guys and one person replied to my post trying to help and another much more advanced moderator told the first person "Oh he hasn't even done X" and that was it no attempt to help solve the problem and from then on I was expected to figure it out on my own. I was so excited because I know the moderator with thousands of posts knows everything its just a matter of getting them to help. Well after refreshing the page a thousand times I realized that it wasn't going to happen. Sometimes its like pulling teeth to get any help and I think it took me 5 hours to coax it out of her and by then I had found the info on another forum.

This forum has a lot of members but how many of them are active? One thing we need to think about is when a forum doesn't have anyone posting mostly when its new the mods and admin are almost begging people to post new threads and show activity to attract new member. If there were even half the number of members this forum has posting it would be amazing and all the mods would be begging people to use the search function. Personally I would like to see the staff of this site change gears and focus on getting more active members for a while.

I've been on this forum for a long time and I can name the people that have helped me on one hand and thats very bad for a forum thats ranked #2 on google.

I'm sorry I got long winded with this it just I got laid off of work 2 months ago and I almost have a really good job but an employer from 5 years ago is holding up my background check because my job title is not worded the same way. So I'm trying to do these odd job websites to make ends meet and I have to fight tooth and nail for every bit of code I don't know.

I just realized I have a lot of issues heh sorry to unload on you but I haven't got out much lately.


What do you guys think about all this does it make any sense or are things good like they are?

[Darin McGrew]

This isn't my job. It isn't anyone else's job either. Speaking for myself, I do this because I want to help people learn how to create "non-browser specific, non-resolution specific, creative and informative sites that are accessible to all users worldwide."

As such, my answers will usually be of the "teach a man to code" variety, rather than the "give a man a code" variety. That isn't going to make posters happy if they just want someone to "give them a code". I'm okay with that. And I'm okay with registered members leaving when they find out that no one is likely to "give them a code".

It's hard to know someone's background. A link that is helpful to a more experienced developer may completely confuse a novice. Ultimately, you have to rely on the original poster replying, saying that they don't understand your answer. And often, the answer is that the original poster needs to be willing to learn how to do something, or willing to pay someone else to do it.

[Brian Chandler]

I just wanted to get your ideas and thoughts on something.With all due respect I think now a days most people are just trying to get-r-done ya know what I mean.

I'm afraid I don't quite understand what you're getting at. (I don't understand what "get-r-done" means at all!)

But I guess that you are finding it frustrating because the answer to some of your questions isn't of the form "Go to the Tool menu, select Fishing rod, wave it about, and enjoy your dinner". (?)

The most basic problem is that you want to do something which is a (not terribly difficult) programming exercise, and you haven't quite realised the extent to which this is a completely new thing (for you, I imagine). Many years ago, about the only time I was involved with "teaching programming", almost everyone who used a computer was writing their own program, to do the thing they wanted to do. In modern times, this doesn't happen: the vast majority of people just use a computer as a typewriter emulator, or a jazzed up newspaper *beep* television, or a sort of ersatz pencil. This is fine, but it means they are only ever actually using the machine to accomplish a manual operation - just much faster or neater or something. In particular, the blog explosion is about making a system so the user is doing only manual operations, and all of the programming stuff is done by providing solutions to a sufficiently wide range of user problems.

Programming requires a different approach - and you need to expect to put some time and effort into grasping what you need to do. It is not reasonable (for example) to expect anyone to write you a tutorial on elementary database programming. (Though they may be quite happy to show you examples close to what you need if it helps - just ask.) I think it is worth persevering with - there is an amazing rush you get from making something that works... and the best thing about programming is that as you make progress on a project, everything gets gradually *easier*. The more stuff you have written, the less you need to write to add more functions.

You also have a topic of substance (spiders!) which is another reason people may feel willing to help. So many of the people who come up with "programming projects" just want to write their own copy of google, or something equally pointless.

So keep asking questions - keep showing that you have made an effort but are now stuck *here* - and you should get help.

[Darin McGrew]

FWIW, "Git-R-Done!" is a catchphrase of Larry the Cable Guy. In this context, it means people just want to "get the job done" (to get the web site to do what they want it to do) as fast as possible. Or in a more cynical view, they just want a fish now, rather than instructions on how to fish.

[pandy]

With all due respect I think now a days most people are just trying to get-r-done ya know what I mean.

Yeah, I get what you mean but I don't agree with you. For, say, 5-6 years ago you were laughed at for talking about valid HTML at most forums. If I go back to the same forums today every little HTML newbie wants his valid buttons. Valid is the big thing nowadays, maybe too much so. It's hard to have valid HTML without understanding it.

I don't think anyone expects you to take every person you reply to under your wing and coach them step by step how to do something but if you could do that to 1 or 2 people a day it would make a good example for everyone else.

I think I do that quite often. Well, now and then anyway. But I do it either when I enjoy it myself or the person asking seems to really want to learn. Why bother with the "URGENT! Need a code for my MySpace page!" guys? They're lost anyway.

[George in TX]

I think I do that quite often. Well, now and then anyway. But I do it either when I enjoy it myself or the person asking seems to really want to learn. Why bother with the "URGENT! Need a code for my MySpace page!" guys? They're lost anyway.

I understand and agree with the, "Give a man a fish and he'll eat for a day. Teach a man how to fish and he'll feed himself for a lifetime" concept. I see so many posts here where the only request is, "Give me the code. Give me the magic code" to accomplish the tiny part of the job the poster is concerned with at the time. If given the code to accomplish that little bit, even if such a 'magic code' exists, will only solve that one problem The poster will find something else tomorrow that he or she doesn't understand and is just as lost then as today. That's because they haven't learned how to code a web page or a Myspace site. They simply don't want to put forth the effort to learn, they just want someone to spoon feed them and help them with one tiny aspect of the whole project at a time.

First, study. Study all you can find to read on the subject of interest whether that subject be HTML, CSS, or some programming language.. Then try things to solve whatever problems you're having until you get to the point that you just can't continue. When you're stuck then ask for help. Be as specific as you can with your request and explain what you've tried and what doesn't work. At that point you can come here or to any number of other HTML help boards and ask an intelligent question. The more you learn the less (intelligent) questions you need to ask.

By now you have surmised that I have no patience with those who only want to be spoon fed and refuse to learn for themselves. If I find someone who honestly wants to learn but who just needs a 'leg up' as it were I'll bend way over backwards to help in any way I can.

[moo]

Different questions merit different responses. I have no problem with handing out fishes where its helpful but it so rarely is on in this forum. Users here are generally after fixes to problems which often revolve around their lack of understanding html/css. In such cases it is much better to feed them with information explaining why the problem is occuring rather rewrite their site for them.

Aternatively, you could rename the site HTMLsitBackAndLetUsCodeItForYou.com (or maybe HTMLextremeFishMetaphores.com)

[Christian J]

This forum has a lot of members but how many of them are active?

I think that's partly due to many just registering to solve a single problem, never to return regardless of the reply they receive. This happened on the old forum too, but since you couldn't register there it didn't show up as inactive member stats.

Personally I would like to see the staff of this site change gears and focus on getting more active members for a while.

True. As a beginner it might feel meaningless to contribute anything if others keep correcting all your attempts. All regulars (including me) can and should try to make such corrections (when necessary) in a way that doesn't make newcomers feel their contributions are unwelcome.

I also think there are too few knowledgeable regulars here. Obviously there are lots of such people on the web, but most of them seem to use other forums.

[pandy]

I also think there are too few knowledgeable regulars here. Obviously there are lots of such people on the web, but most of them seem to use other forums.

Nothing peculiar with that, I think. This forum is still mainly geared towards helping newbies. Maybe not so attractive to most of the knowledgeable, but fine with me.

[Dr Z]

I also think there are too few knowledgeable regulars here. Obviously there are lots of such people on the web, but most of them seem to use other forums.

Nothing peculiar with that, I think. This forum is still mainly geared towards helping newbies. Maybe not so attractive to most of the knowledgeable, but fine with me.

I think a good balance can be found between the two, and IMO it should be. That will make this forum more diversified, not to mention the fact that it may bring new ideas, techniques, etc. on the table.

[pandy]

And how is that going to be accomplished?

[Brian Chandler]

The most basic problem is that you want to do something which is a (not terribly difficult) programming exercise, and you haven't quite realised the extent to which this is a completely new thing (for you, I imagine). Many years ago, about the only time I was involved with "teaching programming", almost everyone who used a computer was writing their own program, to do the thing they wanted to do. In modern times, this doesn't happen: the vast majority of people just use a computer as a typewriter emulator, or a jazzed up newspaper *beep* television, or a sort of ersatz pencil. This is fine, but it means they are only ever actually using the machine to accomplish a manual operation - just much faster or neater or something. In particular, the blog explosion is about making a system so the user is doing only manual operations, and all of the programming stuff is done by providing solutions to a sufficiently wide range of user problems.

Sorry, I forgot to check. I guessed this moronic, stupid, brainless, insult-to-humanity software would probably mess up my comment.

I wrote:

"n e w s p a p e r [space] c u m [space] t e l e v i s i o n"

and had it corrupted by this offensive piece of stupidity.

This post has been edited by Brian Chandler: Jun 11 2008, 11:50 PM

[Brian Chandler]

Aternatively, you could rename the site HTMLsitBackAndLetUsCodeItForYou.com (or maybe HTMLextremeFishMetaphores.com)

Why? Was HTMLextremeFishMetaphors.com already taken? <g>

[pandy]

The moronic software at least is multi-lingual. It knows (one of) the profane Swedish words for the male reproductive organ but not for the female one, which is much more likely to be used as an insult.

[NovaArgon]

Thanks for all the replies.

You all have a lot of good points.

Do you guys plan to try and get some fresh faces around here?

[Darin McGrew]

Do you guys plan to try and get some fresh faces around here?

Any suggestions?

[NovaArgon]

Do you guys plan to try and get some fresh faces around here?

Any suggestions?

Yea

Why do you guys get one of the really aggravating please register pages that shows up ever 10 min if you are logged in. The are find unless your website loges you out after a a few hours so it think it would be a good idea here.

I think the only thing that stops lurkers from posting is having to take the time to log in, If you trick them to take the time while they are in the middle of reading something interesting next thing ya know you have a new poster.

Maybe a induction's forum (if we don't already have one I don't remember) but the key to it isn't the forms its self is the people that are doing the welcoming. If some one posts and gets 10 welcomes it makes them feel like the forum is active, the forum is friendly, and that the forum is happy to have a new member.

Thats just a few ideas off the top of my head. I think friendliness is very important, its kinda hard to convey though text but usually if you are a friendly person it just happens.

I hope this doesn't sound like i'm looking for high post counts or anything I would just like to chat with some noob's or people around my skill level. I've been on some forum that do the really stupid post count threads that's only purpose is to get a lot of stupid meaningless posts that decent forums would delete. Maybe its something to do when you are starting off and it just sticks on ya.

What do you guys think?

[Darin McGrew]

Why do you guys get one of the really aggravating please register pages that shows up ever 10 min if you are logged in. The are find unless your website loges you out after a a few hours so it think it would be a good idea here.

I don't understand. Have you set your browser to clear cookies? I never need to log on here except when I connect with a system that I haven't used in the past couple weeks.

I think the only thing that stops lurkers from posting is having to take the time to log in, If you trick them to take the time while they are in the middle of reading something interesting next thing ya know you have a new poster.

How do you propose that we "trick them to take the time" to log in "while they are in the middle of reading something interesting"? That sounds extremely user-hostile to me.

Maybe a induction's forum (if we don't already have one I don't remember) but the key to it isn't the forms its self is the people that are doing the welcoming. If some one posts and gets 10 welcomes it makes them feel like the forum is active, the forum is friendly, and that the forum is happy to have a new member.

That's a possibility. Another forum that I'm active in has a "Getting Started" section that has a sticky "Introduce Yourself" thread where new members just introduce themselves. We could add something like that easily enough.

[NovaArgon]

That top part was worded wrong my bad.

It should have been

Why *DON'T* you guys get one of the really aggravating please register pages that shows up ever 10 min if you are *NOT* logged in.

wow that really changed things

They are fine unless your website logs you out after a few hours so I think it would be a good idea here.

I have seen other webpages with them. After you have been on the site for about 10 min the next time you reload a page or open a link instead of taking you to where you wanted to go it says something like

" I see you are enjoying browsing our forms why not take a moment to register"

They can either register or close it and go on the page they were looking for but if they do they will see it again in about 10 min. Thats the trick you will skip it the first time and probably the second time as well but after awhile you just register to make it go away

This post has been edited by NovaArgon: Jun 18 2008, 02:36 PM

[pandy]

God help us all.